The Antichrist (63 views) Subscribe   
  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/19/2001 7:36 pm  
To:  ALL   (1 of 94)  
 
  71.1  
 
I want to know everyone's opinion. 
Is he alive today? 
Where will he come from? 
What will he look like? 
What will he do? 
Does he even know he's the antichrist? 
Is he a nescessary evil?

---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/19/2001 9:44 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (2 of 94)  
 
  71.2 in reply to 71.1  
 
DW here is a discussion we can have. 
Im Posting an end Times string that started with the Church, then the Rapture; It will continue with The Martyred Saints, The 7 Seals of Revelation, the 7 Trumpets of Revelation, the Antichrist, the 7 Bowl Judgments of Revelation, and then the Glorious Return of Jesus. 

To give you the 411 on the Antichrist; 
Ill provide the Scriptures Later 

The Antichrist is a man. 

Im Very Positive that He is alive right now. At least that is my opinion. 

He will come from Europe Probably Rome; it probably excludes America in that the Bible deals with the Nations that are bordering the Mediterranean Sea; America was settled by Europe so then again maybe not. You could still be in the running DW or you might have to move to Rome. 

Antichrist is a Greek word Anti in Greek does not mean against it means Instead of. Like ordering a glass of water and Instead getting poison. The poison might look like water but instead of refreshing and giving life it kills and takes life. The Antichrist is claiming to be the One and Only true Messiah. Claiming that Jesus never was the Messiah. The Bible says that There are now Many Antichrists and Indeed I find that to be true. 

Messiah is a Hebrew word it means wet, Anointed, Alive. 
Christ is the Greek word for Messiah. The picture is Bones wet (Anointed) with Blood flowing through them are Alive, Dried up bones w/o blood are dead. Also Spiritual Life gives Spiritual Life; people with The Anointing from God are Spiritually Alive we commonly call this Born Again. 

The Antichrist is defacto an Anti-Messiah. The Antichrist will offer His own version of eternal life, but it comes from Satan and is a Lie. 

Also because it comes from Satan it is a counterfeit of what Jesus has already done. The Antichrist will become a Global Leader. The very Next Global Leader is the Antichrist so act fast or you will miss it. You have a lot of competition Ted Turner and Bill Gates are both donating Billions of Dollars to the U.N. to try to become a Global President. I dont for one second think either of them are the Antichrist. 

The Antichrist will be the world President probably for 3  years (overseeing the murder of millions of Christian Martyred saints). Then in a counterfeit resurrection the Antichrist will be killed himself. Three days later the Antichrist will Resurrect; It has already been done by Jesus, but what liar is original. 

After the resurrection which by the way Satan will now be Possessing the body of the Antichrist. The Antichrist will claim to be Eternal and will offer his mark the mark of the beast. 

This mark is a spiritual counterfeit to the Born Again mark that Christians already have. The beast mark is a Demonic infusion into the human soul and spirit. Those who partake in this demonic Mark will no longer be in the Image of God their creator but will be in a twisted image and once taking the mark those people will be unable to enter into Gods Heaven. 

Near the end of 3  years of Satan offering his fake mark, Jesus will return to the earth and Establish His Righteous Kingdom on Earth. 

The Antichrist and his false prophet are the First two People to be thrown into the Lake of Fire. 

Revelation 19:20 And the Beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 

I have some more writing on the topic that I will also post later. 






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
5.0 (1 vote) 
  
    
 


  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/19/2001 10:22 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (3 of 94)  
 
  71.3 in reply to 71.2  
 
Hm. From what you say... and if you believe in supernatural creatures and the like... the antichrist could be a vampire. Not a new-age vampire, like an empath or otherwise, but an immortal vampire. The false immortality could be a physical immortality, while Jesus offers a more spiritual immortality. The "mark" could also back up the hypothesis. The antichrist would be like Jesus, only he would lie to make people believe that he IS Jesus, correct? Do the words "Drink of my blood and have life everlasting" mean anything to anybody? 
But if this hypothesis holds true, then I guess I'm out of the running for Antichrist. But I still may have a shot. I don't know anybody else who can get flowers to wilt on command.

---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/19/2001 10:39 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (4 of 94)  
 
  71.4 in reply to 71.3  
 
Also, since the Antichrist is going to have the admiration of the whole world (except the Christian/Martyred Saints) he will some how unite much of the entire world for a short time this includes New Agers, Muslims, Hebrews, Hindus etc. all following one person. 
This is why the Antichrist claiming Alien UFO, not of this world, is a common theory. He will probably be everything to everyone, sort of a jumbo Bill Clinton, but that only works for a short time then he has to fight several wars. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/19/2001 11:30 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (5 of 94)  
 
  71.5 in reply to 71.4  
 
Yeah, the UFO theory is very viable, but Jesus launching a war against a completely different planet... I don't think the world would like that very much. Savior or not, even Jesus wouldn't be stupid enough to start a war with a civilization that just shows up.

---------------------------------- 
W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/20/2001 9:08 am  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (6 of 94)  
 
  71.6 in reply to 71.5  
 
According to the Bible the Antichrist will be fighting two major wars one with China and one with Russia and these wars will be centered around Jerusalem. 
The Antichrist is not Jesus. 

Jesus is God in physical form so physical mankind can physically interact with God our creator. Anything Jesus does is Godly and Correct because Jesus is God. God is Good, people are stupid! The Antichrist is a person, and by default is stupid. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
5.0 (1 vote) 
  
    
 


  From:  Zebra30   6/20/2001 9:30 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (7 of 94)  
 
  71.7 in reply to 71.5  
 
Another thing, DW, is that the Antichrist when he does come on the scene is not going to show up looking like, say, Freddy Krueger from the "Nightmare on Elm Street" movies (you asked what he might look like). He'd be more like a "Nightmare on Planet Earth" if that were a movie. He's no intellectual lightweight, either. He'll be charming. He'll be brilliant in a diabolical sort of way. Also, I picture a man that's very sexy and very commanding to the point that people (excepting, of course, the Tribulation saints like David said) will want to follow him like lambs to the slaughter. He'll be able to interpret every situation for his own benefit. No, the Antichrist is not going to come on the scene looking or seeming to be evil. He will seem at first to be the most beneficent leader the world has ever known. He will seemingly have a deep compassion for the world's population. But if you read passages from books like Daniel, Zechariah, maybe Ezekiel or even from Jesus Himself you'll see that once he is established firmly into power he will begin to show himself for what he really is.  
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Zebra30   6/20/2001 9:36 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (8 of 94)  
 
  71.8 in reply to 71.3  
 
A further point,DW; the Antichrist isn't a vampire, but he'll certainly be a bloodthirsty littler jerk. In fact, he'll be so bloody he'll make Dracula look like a Sunday School teacher. 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Dr_Shock   6/21/2001 10:01 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (9 of 94)  
 
  71.9 in reply to 71.4  
 
How will the Antichrist gain political and social power over all "Non-Christians" when most non-Christians don't even like the current President? Remember, power comes from the people. I'm sure there are many non-Christians (including myself) who would absolutely loath such a person. For example, I cherish my right to be an unbranded individual with the option of complete and total privacy. Such a person as the Antichrist would inhibit such freedoms of others and myself, therefore making him my enemy. 
I'd think the Antichrist would have more enemies than just Christians.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/21/2001 10:36 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (10 of 94)  
 
  71.10 in reply to 71.9  
 
Right now you are operating and existing in a free capacity because the Holy Spirit has allowed you this freedom. 
When the Christian Church is raptured into Heaven, the Holy Spirit ceases to be a restrainer of evil. This is what the 7 seals of Revelation are about. The seals (Restraints) are broken, and Satanic, Demonic, influences reign, along with the Evil desires of mankind. 

You will be living in a society with a different spiritual base. Your thoughts and emotions will be vastly different, you do not know how you will react. But if you want to be an individual Only Jesus allows us the freedom to be individuals, this is called Grace! 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  StevenJn316   6/21/2001 12:37 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (11 of 94)  
 
  71.11 in reply to 71.9  
 
Your mistake is in thinking the rights you have (I presume as an American or at least one in a democratic society) are enjoyed by others throughout the world. 
You said "power comes from the people". You don't truly believe that is true for most of the nations of the world do you. Ever heard of Tiannemen square, the Sudan, Cuba and the like? Power comes from force as a rule - often the ones who control the army or at least the weapons. Most all of Africa attests to that. 

So if your objection is on the USA being the sole superpower, maybe we will not be at the time of antichrist (who will be European, not American). Maybe Bush's tax plan destroys our economy (a popular liberal idea), maybe we get nuked or more likely a chemical warfare is waged on our water supply or other terrorist acts which affects the whole nation to which we can not launch missiles against the unknown culprit. 

Hitler is a good foreshadow of antichrist. He got power in part from the people (despite the evil he did) in large part to having the solution for their problems (and a scapegoat). The rest of his power he used brute force to achieve. That is why some who did not know their Bible well enough thought he was the antichrist - not realizing Israel had not been established back in their homeland as a nation yet - a needed requirement for the antichrist's appearance.
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/21/2001 1:20 pm  
To:  ALL   (12 of 94)  
 
  71.12 in reply to 71.11  
 
Hitler has howed us the signs, now we can recognise signs of a next Hitler and 'deal' with him or her. 
(oh and DW couldn't you have said 'Were' .... erhm.... no not were.... but atleast not the 'v' word.


 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/21/2001 3:40 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (13 of 94)  
 
  71.13 in reply to 71.1  
 
DW asked if the Antichrist is a necessary evil.
And by implication, then if he is necessary then why does he end up in hell for doing what is needed.

Yes he is a necessary evil. Since we have evil it is necessary to have enough evil to make a difference.

Evil is not necessary. For example Money is not necessary to have an economy, people can and do exist in barter economies, but when money is introduced into the economy there needs to be enough money to make a difference. Also computers are not necessary for society but since they are introduced into society then you want enough computers to make a difference. Mankind did exist without evil, but since evil was introduced there now needs to be enough evil to give people the choice between good and evil.

God created mankind w/o evil. They introduced evil by disobedience to God. Now that we have evil it is necessary to have enough to give people the choice of following evil or of following God.

*See also the post Called, Chosen and Election that post discusses how God calls, chooses and Elects people. All People are Called to a relationship with God, of the people who respond to Gods call those become the Chosen, To be Chosen is then to be Appointed or Elected to a specific role in Gods Kingdom of righteousness.

Satan also has a temporary kingdom on this earth (not in hell). Satan also calls, chooses and appoints people for his purposes. To Reject the Calling, and Election of God is to make yourself available to the kingdom of Satan.

Satan is a user and to follow Satan is to be used. Satan is what is called in the Bible a Trespasser and soon he will be removed from this earth because he has Rejected God and does not belong on Gods earth. To follow Satan is to follow a Scam, a Scheme, a Hustle, a Jive, whatever you want to call it, but Satan has only empty promises.

We choose which Kingdom we will Serve, God and righteousness to Everlasting Life. Or Satan and destruction to everlasting damnation. Once in the kingdom God then appoints us to a duty and likewise for Satan.

The Antichrist will be in hell because he chose the kingdom of destruction. God is not forcing anyone to take these rolls, Unfortunatlly people are lining up to serve Satan, but it is a short kingdom, considering that the Kingdom of Jesus will last for Eternity.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of Heaven set up a Kingdom, which shall Never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and It shall Stand Forever.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Dr_Shock   6/21/2001 3:42 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (14 of 94)  
 
  71.14 in reply to 71.11  
 
The rights I have are the rights assigned to be just for being born. They're called natural rights. Granted, just for being born I was entered into the Social Contract, giving up some of my rights for societal "protection", but that still doesn't mean I have to be part of it if I don't actively wish to be. The rights I have are accessible to anyone simply for being human. No matter where you are in the world, there are some places where even the government can't get you. For example the Russian Orthodox movement during the Iron Curtain. Not to mention, if the Antichrist is European, then there is no debate here since Europeans are actually less bound than Americans in many ways. True, in many European nations you can't own a gun without it being registered to the local police office, but then again you can also punch a man out and not get sued for it. 
Power such as the Antichrist is supposed to have could only come from the people (such as Hitler which you referenced). Hitler was so charismatic that even Jews in the death camps didn't believe it was his or his mens' ideas that put them there. The Antichrist would need to have total social and political control beyond that of even Hitler. The political control is easy. The social aspect, however, would be difficult since there is no situation which could possibly bring about that sort of a response from all the people (except for maybe a modern war). Hitler had an extreme depression to work off of and the social fodder from the Jews doing so well despite hard times. Currently or even in the forseeable future, the Antichrist would have no such stepping stone. 

The examples you mentioned (for countries) are only half right, since any working person in Cuba doesn't have a problem with their government. Did you know what Cuba has the best medical care in the world (and its free to any working citizen)? Cuba is actually a very nice place if you've ever been there (and yes, the people talk freely about the government in public, as well). 

Tiannemen square was a violent protest blown out of proportion by the media. Yes, there is still a Red Scare going on in the US. If one listens to news other than what happens to be on the joke called US television (the BBC is always good for information) one would soon noticed that the Chinese government didn't fire the first shot. The students had become physically violent and began rioting. The situation would have been handled in America the same way (see the Kent State massacre). The Chinese government isn't a saint in any way, but they wouldn't have such a successful economy if they were complete tyrants nor would we be dealing with them economically if their human rights laws were as bad as the media makes them out to be. Both the Geneva Convention and the UN would prevent this and order an embargo but right now China has MFN status. 

Africa is a completely different monster, since no matter what happens they can't seem to get it together. The Sudan is mainly a religious/social conflict. I won't even get into that... 

In the end, it all comes down to human greed. 

I'm not saying that oppression through an armed government doesn't happen, I'm just saying its much rarer than Americans believe and its usually over things which we couldn't imagine. Mostly because we've only been around about 200 years and haven't had time to be completely corrupted yet. Most dictatorships are built around touchy concepts like religion or drug smuggeling (as in many South American countries). America is also going corrupt in a much more "white collar" way than other countries. Its like the Europeans say about the US, "Survive another 400 years, then come talk to us." 

As for the USA being the sole superpower, we're not. I hope you realize that, if we were to get in a nuclear war tomorrow with China, we'd be wiped off the planet. All of our fancy technology doesn't work after you drop nuclear weaponry and get a reasonable EMP pulse. Not to mention we have almost no active nuclear or IC capabilities at the moment. We do have HAARP, unfortunately its unreliable and tests have been inconclusive. It would take weeks if not months to mobilize an effective strike or counterstrike. Then there is the fact that their Army outnumbers ours 8 to 1. This is the reason Bush wants to start the Star wars project back up (which could cause a war in itself). The possibility that it could all end for the US tomorrow is very real. Perhaps the Antichrist won't even have to deal with the US. 

Who knows how close the end of the world really is? 
(Sorry for this being so long. I couldn't stop typing.)


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/21/2001 3:53 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (15 of 94)  
 
  71.15 in reply to 71.14  
 
Have you ever been to Cuba? 
I have a friend that just lived there for two years. He is Iranian and has lived in most of Europe and some of Asia and Cuba in his plight for Political Asylum. 

He said that Cuba is a very scenic place but that it was also the Most Dangerous place. He feared for his life the most in Cuba because it is such a poor desperate country that crime is rampant. 

Just wondering if you have actually been there and where? 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Dr_Shock   6/21/2001 3:59 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (16 of 94)  
 
  71.16 in reply to 71.15  
 
I was there back in 1997 for eye surgery in Havanna. Mayo Clinic in Rodchester sent me there since they didn't have the equipment to preform the surgery themselves. 
An Iranian refugee would have everything to fear in Cuba as the government often sends runaways back from wence they came. Unlike the US, they don't take in strays. 

Getting a passport from the US is Hell, by the way.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/21/2001 4:57 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (17 of 94)  
 
  71.17 in reply to 71.13  
 
no offense David, but 'Evil' and 'Good', much like beauty, are in the eyes of the beholder, and I do not share your views on what is 'evil'. 
And stop saying the word Satan all the time as if it's the cause of all the shit in the world ... 

Satan doesn't exist, Lucifer (Bringer of Enlightenment[literal translation from Hebrew]) was cast out of heaven and some time later, a guy claiming to be Lucifer comes out, but the Jews aren't fooled. Hence the name Shaitan (imposter), nothing more, Satan and Hell are myths made up by the 'Holy Roman-Catholic Church of God and Christ' to scare people into believing in God, but more importantly to scare people into giving a lot of money and other goods to the Church in order to buy their way into heaven, or out of hell. It was based on the ancient Greek and Roman concepts of Tartaros and Hades. Nothing more and nothing less. So stop all this 'Satan' shit, because the only people who are afraid hell are already christian. 

I refuse to be some pawn in the the chess game you claim Satan and God are playing. 

Besides, if disobedience was evil, then Adam and Lilith (and later Eva) were already evil, it just surfaced later and that would make God, in whose image you claim to have been created, evil. (by the way, the translation is: 'created alike God' not 'created in His(God) image')


 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/21/2001 6:12 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (18 of 94)  
 
  71.18 in reply to 71.17  
 
No Good is Good and Evil is Evil.
You may have chosen evil and then want to call it Good but that is just playing name games.

Just like the games you are playing with God and the Bible. The name of Lilith does not occur anywhere in the Bible because she doesnt exist it is folklore, pretend, make-believe.

The name Satan occurs in the Bible because he exists and is a real threat to mankind

2 Thessalonians 2:9,10 Even him (Antichrist), whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs (miracles) and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they receive not the Truth, that they might be Saved.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/21/2001 6:27 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (19 of 94)  
 
  71.19 in reply to 71.13  
 
Alright... let's start with the mistakes that prove that I, someone not a christian (But who has a circumcission(SP)) knows about the old testament. 
>God created mankind w/o evil. They introduced evil by 
>disobedience to God. Now that we have evil it is necessary 
>to have enough to give people the choice of following evil 
>or of following God. 

According to the bible, Lucifer, who was the light bringer of God chose to give mankind the knowledge of good and evil, it has been simplified to make this easier in the newer texts to be an 'apple'. Lucy got punished for this act of telling god 'you're wrong' in denying mankind the ability to understand anything past that of an animal. Mankind was punished for knowing what good and evil is, kicked out of paradise, this is in fact a constant... hence the age old statement, 'ignorance is bliss'. By this statement, we could not have understood the implications of disobeying a parent figure who waggled a finger at us and said, 'don't eat the _shiney_ _pretty_ apple.' 

Also note, in the original passage, Adam got tempted 3 times to eat the apple, first by his first wife, Lilith, the second by his second wife and then again by Eve, his third wife. Apparently either Adam was a player or god was a picky parent. 

Now, you seem to like saying the word SATAN, that is another incorrectness as he is neither Lucifer nor Beelzibub (SP), the former being the former right hand of God and the latter being the husband of Lilith and he who revolted against Gid first... Satan is from Shaitan and a poor translation, he who was the angel who judged those worthy to sit with god after they passed beyond the mortal world. (Also known now as St. Peter, oddly enough, they both have the same symbological animal to represent them.) 

Oh... by the way... by law, Jesus was married or else he would have been silenced by the laws of his day... not that it matters, women were accessories back in that day. 

Next time you open your mouth to say something smart, close it, think and then try, Repeat. 

Al Kupone 

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


   From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/21/2001 6:31 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (20 of 94)  
 
  71.20 in reply to 71.18  
 
>Just like the games you are playing with God and the 
>Bible. The name of Lilith does not occur anywhere 
>in the Bible because she doesnt exist it is 
>folklore, pretend, make-believe. 
I just have one thing to say... 

Torah, Torah, Torah! 

She is in the Torah, the _real_ old testament, you know, the one before the editors got thier hands on it. If you want to read it, I'll even tell you where to get good Ancient Hebrew to English dictionary, since _WE_ don't translate the great work as that 
(Changing the book of god) was prophesied to be that which will cause the end of the world. 

Is my accent showing yet? 
Mensch. 

Al Kupone 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 6/21/01 9:33:59 PM ET by KUPONE 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/21/2001 6:40 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (21 of 94)  
 
  71.21 in reply to 71.19  
 
You so Misquoted the Bible that I have to ask if you even own a Bible? 
And if you do Please Quote it when you make your Allegations, it will help to see the verse you are referencing along with your reference. 

No, Jesus was not married and He didnt have to be. Some of the Political Offices and Priest Offices required a man to be married. Jesus was not a Politician, BTW the Apostle Paul was a Politician and he was probably married. 

Jesus is from the tribe of Judah. The priests are from the tribe of Levi so Jesus would not need to be married. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/21/2001 6:53 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (22 of 94)  
 
  71.22 in reply to 71.21  
 
Do you ever get offline? I guess not. 
Yes, I own a bible and I have access for a Torah, but if you need me to quote verse and scripture with the little numbers of the newer bibles, I'll put it under consideration. 

Paul was a Tax Collector, he was a ROMAN and thus had different laws to follow... remember what his original name was? Was is SAUL? 

Again, I invite you to peruse history, Those of the tribe of Judah were required to be married in order to be 'teacher'. But you just read the bible, don't you? As a personal suggestion, go to a _real_ university and read some of the more in depth historical documents from the era and you'll understand a lot more. 

Being one of the 'chosen' of God as you claim to be as a Christian you should not have anything to worry about by reading the texts of man that concerned the time of god. 

Al Kupone
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/21/2001 9:41 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (23 of 94)  
 
  71.23 in reply to 71.18  
 
The name of Lilith does not occur anywhere in the Bible because she doesnt exist it is folklore, pretend, make-believe. 
Really? The bible doesn't mention about anything about a good 15 years of Jesus' life. Does that mean they didn't exist? That God actually stopped time, aged Jesus in a second, and the resumed again?

---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/21/2001 10:21 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (24 of 94)  
 
  71.24 in reply to 71.19  
 
Okay, I'm going to take the fact that we all believe Lucifer was thrown out of heaven. Someone stop me if this is wrong. 
But what we can't seem to agree on is what caused him to fight, and whether or not he is Satan. 

I personally believe that Lucifer decided to revolt when he was told to bow down and serve the humans. He was told to lower place himself lower than humans. I believe that Lucifer loved God too much for him to be told to take a backseat to God's new pet project. 

And Satan did not cause human's expulsion from Eden. Humans caused human's downfall. We were made with evil inside us. The serpent simply brought those latent ideas of rebellion to light. The serpent is not Satan either. The serpent was punished for what he did, and Satan had no part to do with it.

---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/22/2001 3:49 am  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (25 of 94)  
 
  71.25 in reply to 71.24  
 
to the first: as far as I know not quite, Lucifer rebelled because God wanted to keep humans dumb and ignorant and Lucifer gave them, not knowledge, but fire because I was wrong, the comparative translation of Lucifer is Bringer of Enlightenment, the direct translation is Giver or Bringer of Fire/Light, Which is alomost exactly like that ROMAN myth about that god that gave humans fire and was punnished by having to push that boulder up the hill, that kept becoming heavier as he reached the top and that would always fall again. In other words, Lucifer is next to nothing more then the Catholic adaption of a Roman myth. 
to the second: yup, that's right ... but again isn't it strange that to earlier then roman (before they were conquered by the romans) Judean texts, the snake was considdered a good animal (because the Jews knew how to make medicine from their poison), but in post-roman texts the snake was the embodyment of evil, and isn't it strange that the Romans were one of two ancient civilisations that considdered the snake evil (the other one was ancient Greek civilisation). 

To the Fundies: can't you see that the Bible has been altered way too much to be believable? that doesn't mean that you can't believe in God, it just means that you should stop quoting the bible all the time, the only thing that says the bible is right, is the bible itself. 


 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/22/2001 9:27 am  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (26 of 94)  
 
  71.26 in reply to 71.23  
 
The Bible Tells of the Incarnation/Birth of Jesus, mentions when He was 12 years old, then as an adult and His Death and Resurrection. The continuity of Jesus Exists.
Lilith is Never mentioned, as a part of Creation. She Never existed!! Only Adam and Eve are mentioned and they are Always mentioned.

*Satan Fell Before God Created Humans.
Satan fell because of his own pride not because of interaction with humans.

Isaiah 14:13-15 For thou (Satan) hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most high. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Ezekiel 28:17 Thine (Satans) heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of they brightness:






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Dr_Shock   6/22/2001 11:40 am  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (27 of 94)  
 
  71.27 in reply to 71.20  
 
I had forgotten about that! In ancient Hebrew society, if you were a Rabbi (teacher) you had to be married by law. Also in Hebrew society, your parents were forced to provide three specific things for their children: 
1. The knowledge of a trade. (Jesus was a carpenter.) 
2. A spouse. (There is good historical and Biblical evidence that Jesus was married.) 
3. A strong moral structure based in Judaism. (Jesus was a Jew.) 



-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/22/2001 12:47 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (28 of 94)  
 
  71.28 in reply to 71.26  
 
As a point of reference, what bible are you using? 
Now, as for saying that Lilith never existed, take some time and get a hold of a vesion of the Torah, the book that the old testament was written from. The Old Testament is comprised of a number of books, including Genisis, Exodus, Liviticus, Numbers and Duterotomy (all from the Torah), though as I said, these are a dumbed down, or adapted for the masses to be more easily understood. The Torah is as thick as the bible itself and contains only 5 books from it. 

Al Kupone
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  StevenJn316   6/22/2001 1:27 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (29 of 94)  
 
  71.29 in reply to 71.27  
 
You posted...2. A spouse. (There is good historical and Biblical evidence that Jesus was married.) 
Now, surely you know that even the most liberal, nonChristian historians do not argue for Jesus being married as a rule. Believe me, I have sat through several such 'documentaries' by PBS and the like during Easter or Christmas, and this point is not made even by them. I doubt 1 in 10,000 people alive today think Jesus was married. 

There is ZERO Biblical evidence to support this claim, and as for the good historical evidence, I would sure like to see it, especially since one argument against Christianity is the limited historical evidence outside of the Bible itself. 

Marriages were usually arranged of course. And while I agree with your claim about the need for parents to teach their children (all not just rabbis) a trade and the Torah, there is no such requirement that ALL people be married. Where is your source for such a claim? Simple mathematics precludes this without God condoning polygamy as there is not an equal number of men and women alive, and I doubt there was in Israel over the centuries either. 

Maybe you are thinking of the Pharisees, who ALL were married as part of being a Pharisee, but of course Jesus was not a Pharisee. 

It seems if you are going to post to the masses such an outlandish claim, telling us all your extreme minority view is supported by (in your words) GOOD HISTORICAL AND BIBLICAL evidence, then you should have no trouble providing several sources for your views - so we can see for ourselves. 

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  StevenJn316   6/22/2001 1:36 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (30 of 94)  
 
  71.30 in reply to 71.28  
 
Would you please tell us where we can get a hold of such a book as you describe? It seems you are somewhat confused, OR you are speaking of the various commentaries on the Torah which might be included with the actual TEXT of the Torah. 
The Hebrew word Torah means simply LAW. The Law of Moses, or simply the Law, refers to the 5 books of Moses, which you properly identified as Gen, Ex, Lev, Num, Deut. Whenever someone in the Bible refers to the Law (or Law of Moses) they are speaking of the 5 books of the Bible and they quote them accordingly. So when you read, LAW, in your English, substitute TORAH. 

The five books were not taken OUT of the Torah - they ARE the Torah. 

It is true that Jewish rabbinical thought has placed the various commentaries of Scripture, such as the Talmud, Mishnah, Targums and the like on a par with Holy Writ, however that specific issue is dealt with by Jesus in the Gospels. 

I am afraid you have been misinformed. However, if you can show us such a book as you describe, even point us to a museum which contains such a volume, it would be appreciated.
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Dr_Shock   6/22/2001 2:44 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (31 of 94)  
 
  71.31 in reply to 71.29  
 
Thank you for burying yourself. =) 
Interesting how you loose your temper so fast. Read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail". You'll find it in the nonfiction section of most bookstores, by the way. It was written by a BBC crew back in the early 80's. Originally it was a project simply based on Carther involvement in the Crusades but turned into something much more after research had began. The Roman Catholic Church tried to have the book internationally banned before it even went into print. Since you're whole basis for your argument is based around things you've watched on PBS perhaps you should try reading for a change. 

As for historical evidence: First off, a Jewish father ALWAYS found a wife for his son. If he had a daughter it was less important. As Dr.Geza Vermes of Oxford University said, "There is complete silence in the Gospels concerning the marital status of Jesus... Such a state of affairs is sufficiently unusual in ancient Jewry to prompt further enquiry." I could go on and on... 

Biblical evidence: Jesus would often consol in the Magdalene rather than his disciples who became jealous of her. In the fourth Gospel, we have Jesus invited to wedding in Cana where both the bride and groom oddly remain nameless. (By the way, it was tradition to "invite" the groom to the marriage as that signified that his whole family was invited.) However, Jesus' mother just happens to be present and it is her who asks him to turn the water into wine and he treats it as if it were his responsibility. As the groom it would have been his responsibility. In John (2:9-10) the governor of ceremonies even refers to Jesus as "the bridegroom". (He tells the bridegroom that he had kept the best wine until last. Since Jesus provided the wine he is, therefore, the bridegroom.) And, once again, I could go on and on... 

Here is only one of many links I found with a quick search. Please look for yourself: From: http://www.**** 

By the way, most Mormons believe that Jesus was married. 

Would you like some salt on your crow? 

-The Mad Dr. Shock 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 6/23/2001 1:40:55 AM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/22/2001 3:07 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (32 of 94)  
 
  71.32 in reply to 71.31  
 
DR_SHOCK wrote:
By the way, most Mormons believe that Jesus was married.
  I don't know that this is true; I do know that official LDS doctrine is, like the bible, basically silent on this point, certainly offering no solid basis for a Mormon to believe with certainty one way or the other.  Personally, I think Jesus was most likely married; however, I have discussed this with many Mormons who disagree with me on this point.  In light of the significance that marriage has to Mormons, I think it makes little sense for us to suppose that Jesus did not partake of this most sacred and vital ordinance.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 To email me, remove the string .nospam from the email address which appears below.  DO NOT send me any form of advertising, chain letters, or other such garbage.  Spammers will be dealt with very harshly!

bob-blaylock.nospam@usa.net  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  StevenJn316   6/22/2001 4:12 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (33 of 94)  
 
  71.33 in reply to 71.31  
 
Oh, I have not lost my temper, I am shaking my head in disbelief as I type. If I understand you correctly you are now saying John 2 refers to Jesus' wedding?? And can you cite the passage where the disciples are jealous of Mary Magdalene? Have you read John 2? 
My whole argument is not based on PBS...come now, please do not exaggerate so much. I notice a Mormon posted against your claim that MOST Mormons believe something when in fact it seems (based on Bob's post) thers is quite a difference of opinion within LDS. And of course, I am not a part of LDS either. But maybe the problem is your insistence that your view is also the majority one held. 

I mentioned PBS as a simple example of someone who denies the deity of Jesus and His miracles, yet tells his story - and neglects discussion of him being married. 

By the way, what happens in Jewish families when the father (Joseph) is dead and the mother (Mary) happens to know her son is the Son of God and the Savior of the world. Are they still obligated to find a wife for him? You see I care what the Bible specifically teaches. I do not doubt that it is rare for a man to be unmarried. It is rare today too, in most nations. 

I do not doubt that you can find people who have websites or have written books that go against every traditional teaching or view of Christianity. Do you think Jesus was a homosexual? Some do and have written books on it. Was he a drug addict? Some think he was and have written on it. 

I see a difference between saying 'there is good historical evidence' for something and saying that 'some people claim'.... 

Put another way, why would I abandon what the Bible teaches simply because one (usually hostile to Christianity) person has a new view to sell some books??? 

As I said in another post. All of this is secondary. Did Jesus rise from the dead? Is He who He claimed to be? God incarnate. That is what matters.
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Dr_Shock   6/22/2001 5:07 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (34 of 94)  
 
  71.34 in reply to 71.32  
 
Some Mormons go along with the idea and some don't. The Mormon belief system is the only Christian tradition which currently teaches that Jesus was married in some circles. Its a matter of personal belief, I suppose.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/22/2001 5:20 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (35 of 94)  
 
  71.35 in reply to 71.34  
 
DR_SHOCK wrote:
Some Mormons go along with the idea and some don't. The Mormon belief system is the only Christian tradition which currently teaches that Jesus was married in some circles.
  I don't think this is an accurate way to put it.  Mormonism does not teach that Jesus was married, (not even in some circles), nor does it teach that he was not married.  I think that the most that can be said in this direction, and remain accurate, is that our belief system is more consistent with the notion that Jesus might have been married, than the belief systems of most (perhaps all) other Christian sects.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 To email me, remove the string .nospam from the email address which appears below.  DO NOT send me any form of advertising, chain letters, or other such garbage.  Spammers will be dealt with very harshly!

bob-blaylock.nospam@usa.net  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Dr_Shock   6/22/2001 5:23 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (36 of 94)  
 
  71.36 in reply to 71.33  
 
I can get you the Bible passage of the Disciples being angry with Mary for Jesus having confided in her. Its just going to take me a little time because I'm in the middle of moving. Many of the things in John 2 are unexplained and quite shady. When you say "some people claim" I do hope you mean degreed history scholars on the topic. Most of them feel that there is too much missing from the life of Jesus for there not to be something odd going on. Why is it so hard to believe he had a wife? 
<<<By the way, what happens in Jewish families when the father (Joseph) is dead and the mother (Mary) happens to know her son is the Son of God and the Savior of the world. Are they still obligated to find a wife for him?>>> 

Same thing. Get the boy married so that he can provide for his mom who can then help take care of any children he'd happen to have by his new wife. The nuclear family used to extend beyond just mom, dad and kid. Since women usually live longer than men this was probably a common crisis. 

<<<Do you think Jesus was a homosexual? Some do and have written books on it. Was he a drug addict? Some think he was and have written on it.>>> 

Yes, but they're usually in the New Age or Fiction section of most bookstores. "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" (along with a couple other historical analyses of Jesus' life) are usually cited in college history classes (Where I was first introduced to the book). 

<<<Put another way, why would I abandon what the Bible teaches simply because one (usually hostile to Christianity) person has a new view to sell some books???>>> 

This is how most modern Christians sell their books, as well. Just look at all the fake degreed preachers floating around in the media. (Bob Larson is a good example of this.) 

Jesus never claimed to be God. When Pilot asked him if he was, in fact, the son of God as the Jews were saying, Jesus just said, "Call me what you will." The only thing Jesus ever claimed was that he was a teacher. 



-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Dr_Shock   6/22/2001 5:24 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (37 of 94)  
 
  71.37 in reply to 71.33  
 
I can get you the Bible passage of the Disciples being angry with Mary for Jesus having confided in her. Its just going to take me a little time because I'm in the middle of moving. Many of the things in John 2 are unexplained and quite shady. When you say "some people claim" I do hope you mean degreed history scholars on the topic. Most of them seem to think that since so much is missing from Jesus' life in the Bible that something odd had to be going on. Why is it so hard to believe that maybe Jesus had a wife? People get married every day. 
<<<By the way, what happens in Jewish families when the father (Joseph) is dead and the mother (Mary) happens to know her son is the Son of God and the Savior of the world. Are they still obligated to find a wife for him?>>> 

Same thing. Get the boy married so that he can provide for his mom who can then help take care of any children he'd happen to have by his new wife. The nuclear family used to extend beyond just mom, dad and kid. Since women usually live longer than men this was probably a common crisis. 

<<<Do you think Jesus was a homosexual? Some do and have written books on it. Was he a drug addict? Some think he was and have written on it.>>> 

Yes, but they're usually in the New Age or Fiction section of most bookstores. "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" (along with a couple other historical analyses of Jesus' life) are usually cited in college history classes (Where I was first introduced to the book). 

<<<Put another way, why would I abandon what the Bible teaches simply because one (usually hostile to Christianity) person has a new view to sell some books???>>> 

This is how most modern Christians sell their books, as well. Just look at all the fake degreed preachers floating around in the media. (Bob Larson is a good example of this.) 

Jesus never claimed to be God. When Pilot asked him if he was, in fact, the son of God as the Jews were saying, Jesus just said, "Call me what you will." The only thing Jesus ever claimed was that he was a teacher. 



-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Dr_Shock   6/22/2001 5:31 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (38 of 94)  
 
  71.38 in reply to 71.35  
 
Quite sorry. Most of the Mormons I've met (in Colorado) used to be quite vocal with the local Catholics over the subject. There are also a lot of web pages which state that its part of the Mormon doctorine. Not being Mormon, I assumed that since there were so many Mormon web pages about it and since I've seen a lot of Mormon literature on the topic that, perhaps, the Mormons had come to an "official" conclusion on the subject. 
One pamphlet that was being circulated around Denver by the local Mormons for awhile was intitled "Adam and Eve, Not Adam and Steve". Despite the title, the main example they used against homosexuality was (rough quote), "Jesus was most likely married himself. If Jesus wasn't gay then why should you be?" 

Just going on real life experience. Apologies again.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Zebra30   6/22/2001 9:00 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (39 of 94)  
 
  71.39 in reply to 71.9  
 
The point you seem to be missing, Dr.Shock, is that when the Antichrist does come to the fore, it won't be what you will want or what I might want. The Antichrist will have total power over the earth's inhabitants. He will charm the population into giving him complete control over them. Daniel says that he will corrupt by flatteries. In other words, Dr. Shock, he will gain control of you as well as the rest of the population by appealing to our baser desires and instincts. He may tell you something like, if you will follow me you won't have to be bothered by narrow-minded morality again. You will be able to set your own ethics and standards. Never mind that someone else might negatively affected. YOU are the master of your own universe. You are, in essence, your own god. But everyone wants to do as they please, Dr. Shock. What do you do when everyone acts on this idea? Pretty soon the world becomes unlivable. People start looking for some order out of the chaos. The new world leader steps up to the podium, so to speak, and offers himself as the answer. Of course, once he in you won't be able to get rid of him. And you're right about one thing, Dr. Shock; the Antichrist has a lot of enemies and he's going to gain even more. If you're unfortunate enough to still be on this earth at that time in history and you refuse to receive his mark, then yes you will be considered an of his and his kingdom. 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


   From:  Zebra30   6/22/2001 9:19 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (40 of 94)  
 
  71.40 in reply to 71.13  
 
I couldn't have said it better myself, David! You've said what I've been thinking for a long time! I've often said that I believe that mankind is caught up in a gigantic con game. That con artist is so smart, so wily that he is able to get the masses of mankind to desire its own destruction. Look at the rapid rise of Neo-paganism. It seems that the trees and rocks in many instances have more rights than human beings. Look at the rise of extreme environmentalism (I don't mean to imply that we shouldn't be concerned about the environment. We should, but not to the exclusion of human rights and dignity), the easy acceptance of things like abortion, homosexuality and other sexual aberations, and the list goes on and on. So thanks a lot, David, for saying what I've been thinking for a long time. P.S. (By the way, have you ever read any of the "Left Behind" books that are so hot right now? Tell me what you think of them. I'm considering starting another forum for any fans of the series that might be on this forum. What do you think?) 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit  
 
From:  Zebra30   6/22/2001 9:31 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (41 of 94)  
 
  71.41 in reply to 71.17  
 
And would you please clean up your mouth, man? I came to this forum because it is one of the few places in cyberspace that I don't have to worry about being embarrassed so I'd really appreciate it if you would pick some other kind of verbiage. And whether you believe it or not, you already are a pawn in a cosmic game. We all are being asked to chose sides. And perhaps you've already chosen. I hope for your sake that you're happy with your choice. 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Zebra30   6/22/2001 10:06 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (42 of 94)  
 
  71.42 in reply to 71.31  
 
Are you talking about that asinine book that came out in the (I believe)middle-80's? I believe it claimed something to the effect that Jesus didn't die on the cross as is commonly believed by Christians, but that He and Mary Magdalene had founded a secret dynasty free from original sin (allegedly). The elitism in that book is so naked that it would be laughable if it wasn't so serious. Jesus is the only hope for beleaguered mankind. He came as God made manifest in the flesh to give His life as a ransom for you and me. We have no such hope if we have to depend on an occultic-based, exclusionary book such as "Holy Blood, Holy Grail". Jesus came for the all of mankind, not just for the elite few. "Holy Blood,etc." appeals to the pride and arrogance in the heart of man. That's this books only selling point just like all of occultism. So, I'd find some other books to read if I were you. 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Zebra30   6/22/2001 10:15 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (43 of 94)  
 
  71.43 in reply to 71.36  
 
What about the passage where Jesus says to (I believe because the specific chapter escapes me right now) His disciples, "I and the Father are one"?  
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/22/2001 10:52 pm  
To:  ALL   (44 of 94)  
 
  71.44 in reply to 71.43  
 
Jesus Was NOT MARRIED to a Woman. The CHURCH is the BRIDE of Christ Jesus. 
Just consider if Jesus was married to a woman she would be the Biggest No Show on the face of the earth. Where Was She? She was Never once whith Him, don't you think she could have accompanied Him somewhere. 

I expect next to read that Jesus was Married to Lilith, which BTW would make more sence then alot of stuff that is posted on this forum.




David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/22/2001 11:10 pm  
To:  Zebra30   (45 of 94)  
 
  71.45 in reply to 71.43  
 
Hi, 
I havent yet read any of the left behind books. But some day I will. I did see the Movie Left Behind in the theater and it was Excellent!!! It would make a great forum and an excellent companion forum to the one you already have. 

Just wondering Is Beverly Lahaye, the wife of Tim Lahaye. Maybe I shouldnt wonder that here on this thread. I listen to Beverly Lahaye on the Radio and she has an excellent radio program concerned women for America www.cwfa.org 

*About the abusive and offensive language, Others have also complained to me about it. SO now I will be cracking down. And I do Apologize that I havent done more to stop it. I know that the people who are doing it are not going to change their behavior, Because that would Require some Respect for us Christians and that is something that they do not have. So I will take it upon myself to clean up the forum. 

God Bless You, 
Your Brother in Jesus, 
David 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/23/2001 2:50 am  
To:  Zebra30   (46 of 94)  
 
  71.46 in reply to 71.41  
 
I'm not choosing a side. Because I do not believe there is a 'cosmic game' and I simply refuse to take part in one. 

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/23/2001 2:55 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (47 of 94)  
 
  71.47 in reply to 71.44  
 
listen you obnoxious Fundy snob (because that's how you're acting) YOU ARE NOT GOD, YOUR WORD IS NOT LAW AND JUST BECAUSE YOU OR YOUR PRECIOUS HEAP OF PAPER SAY IT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE TRUE!

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/23/2001 6:49 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (48 of 94)  
 
  71.48 in reply to 71.45  
 
Because that would Require some Respect for us Christians and that is something that they do not have. 
I have to object to this statement. Most here have shown respect for the people that have earned it. A swear word or two does not equate to disrespect. Not only that, the most disrespectful statements that I have seen so far (I have not read everything) has come from the Christians on this forum when addressing the beliefs (or lack of) of the non-christians. I, for one, have not ridiculed anyone for their beliefs and tried to engage in some kind of historical discourse to shed light on confusing and debatable topics. Yet the common response is something like, "This is the way it is because it is the way it is, and the Bible says it's true. You are going to burn in hell." I don't know how one can consider this remotely respectful of someone who does NOT share the belief that the bible is the singular final word on life; it is an insult cloaked in denial.

Damning a non-believer to an eternity of hellfire is similar to a non-believer telling YOU that he hopes you die a miserable slow death by leprosy and you mother gets raped by a pack of Orangutans. Neither is nice and neither shows respect for what the other believes is really possible.

It starts by accepting the fact that, while you may have a strong BELIEF in something, it doesn't make it a FACT that you can ridicule others for unless you have something that is verifiable, repeatable proof. Even then, ridicule is not necessary.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Dr_Shock   6/23/2001 2:35 pm  
To:  Zebra30   (49 of 94)  
 
  71.49 in reply to 71.39  
 
The Antichrist won't pay the bills, get me another degree or get me a job. Therefore, he is worthless to me. 
I love how you assume that everyone who is not Christian will be taken in by the supposed Antichrist even thought you are the ones who are truly the lemmings. You believe whatever another Bible thumper feeds you. I feel sorry that you cannot think for yourself.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Dr_Shock   6/23/2001 2:42 pm  
To:  Zebra30   (50 of 94)  
 
  71.50 in reply to 71.42  
 
The book was first published in 1982. Apperantly, you never read it since you didn't even get the jest of the book. Everything you said "the book claimed" is never even mentioned vaugely in any of its chapers. Try reading it instead of quoting some web page you saw on the subject. Most of the book deals with the history of the Templars and the church from the crusades up to the 1800's. Is your reading comprehension that pitiful that you couldn't read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" without getting the main concept of the book? 
Your arguments, as many on this board, have absolutely no basis in anything other than the Bible which cannot be proven. 


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Dr_Shock   6/23/2001 2:43 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (51 of 94)  
 
  71.51 in reply to 71.44  
 
Where was Noah's wife? She is almost never mentioned. Jesus could have been married to Mary since she was always by his side.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/23/2001 9:14 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (52 of 94)  
 
  71.52 in reply to 71.51  
 
Jesus wasnt Married to Mary. 
Jesus is Married to His Church!! 

The Bible has No Difficulty directly relating the Facts. If Jesus were married to anyone other than the Church the Bible would have stated it. It is the Facts of the Bible that you have so much difficulty with and are trying to ignore and discount that is why you want to speculate instead of process what the Bible does say on various topics. 

Any Chance you could drop the heat of your replies a tone or two? I would like to read them thoroughly but then why read when it is a constant berating session. I think any information you have is getting lost in the personal attacks. Obviously people do not think the way you do. You should expect it while visiting a Christian forum. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/23/2001 9:20 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (53 of 94)  
 
  71.53 in reply to 71.52  
 
The chuch didn't exist when Jesus was alive, so he couldn't have been married to it! 
And the church he did go to, he trashed. Does that mean the bible encourages wife abuse?

---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/23/2001 9:42 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (54 of 94)  
 
  71.54 in reply to 71.53  
 
Your right Jesus did not have a Church/Bride while he was on earth. Jesus is referred to as the Bridegroom meaning that the wedding has not yet taken place.
Jesus is God in a physical body.

Mankind in our current physical bodies we are in a sinful body. It was necessary for Jesus to Die on the Cross for Our Sins so mankind can be reconciled to God. It isnt much of a relationship or marriage if two people are separated by the sins of one.

Revelation 19:7 9 Let us be Glad and Rejoice, and give Honor to Him (Jesus): for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the Righteousness of the Saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are Called unto the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the True sayings of God.

Marriage means a commited lifelong relationship. Christians have a marriage, an Everlasting Eternal lifelong relationship with Jesus.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit  
 
From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   6/23/2001 11:51 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)     
 
    
 
I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, 
but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who 
is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is 
antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever 
denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that 
acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 
1 John 2:21-23 
If one denies, rejects, objects or beleives that Jesus is not 
the Messiah, the Christ, then he/she who does believe this 
IS the antiChrist! 

Who is guilty of that lying, but he who denies that truth 
which is the sum of all Christianity? That Jesus is the Christ; 
that he is the Son of God; that he came in the flesh, is one 
undivided truth. and he that denies any part of this, in effect 
denies the whole. 

He/She is antichrist, and the spirit of antichrist, who in 
denying the Son denies the Father also. 

Antichrist is "he that denieth the Father and the Son." To 
deny the latter is virtually to deny the former. Again, the 
truth as to the Son must be held in its integrity; to deny 
that Jesus is the Christ, or that He is the Son of God, or that 
He came in the flesh, invalidates the whole. 

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man 
knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man 
the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will 
reveal him. 
Matt. 11:27 

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is 
come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of 
antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and 
even now already is it in the world. 
1 John 4:3 

Anyone who says that Jesus was NOT a man, that is to say, 
that He did not have flesh, a body, then he who says this is 
also the antichrist. The Gnostics believed that Jesus was 
merely a spirit but never believed Jesus was fully man. The 
Gnostics as well as anyone else who denies Jesus and who 
He is, is the antiChrist.... 

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess 
not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver 
and an antichrist. 
2 John 1:7 

In the first few verses below, these men of God tell Jesus 
that He was "born of fornication" in other words, that Jesus 
was a bastard...The true meaning of bastard put in its proper 
context means this: 

In the Old Testament the rendering of the Hebrew word 
_mamzer'_, which means "polluted." In Deut. 23:2, it occurs 
in the ordinary sense of illegitimate offspring. In Zech. 9:6, 
the word is used in the sense of foreigner. From the history 
of Jephthah we learn that there were bastard offspring 
among the Jews (Judg. 11:1-7). In Heb. 12:8, the word (Gr. 
nothoi) is used in its ordinary sense, and denotes those who 
do not share the privileges of God's children. 
Easton's Dictionary 

These scriptures below are Jesus' own words to the 
supposed men of God, the Pharisees, Saducees and 
Sanhedrin...According to Jesus, they had no clue who God 
really was because they selfish, full of lust and carnality. 

Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We 
be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love 
me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I 
of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my 
speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of 
your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. 
He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the 
truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a 
lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of 
it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 
Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, 
why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's 
words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of 
God. 
John 8:41-47 

Satan prompts men to excesses by which they murder 
themselves and others, while what he puts into the mind 
tends to ruin men's souls. He is the great promoter of 
falsehood of every kind. He is a liar, all his temptations are 
carried on by his calling evil good, and good evil, and 
promising freedom in sin. He is the author of all lies; whom 
liars resemble and obey, with whom all liars shall have their 
portion for ever. The special lusts of the devil are spiritual 
wickedness, the lusts of the mind, and corrupt reasonings, 
pride and envy, wrath and malice, enmity to good, and 
enticing others to evil. By the truth, here understand the 
revealed will of God as to the salvation of men by Jesus 
Christ, the truth Christ was now preaching, and which the 
Jews opposed. 



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ



 

 The
Spirit-Filled Christian
Forum  
Vsit My Family Website 
 
 

And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Luke 3:22
 
 
From:  Dr_Shock   6/24/2001 3:48 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (56 of 94)  
 
  71.56 in reply to 71.54  
 
<<<Jesus is referred to as the Bridegroom meaning that the wedding has not yet taken place.>>> 
I think both you and I understand that the above is a very weak argument since Revelation has nothing to do with the wedding in Cana. Also, please decide if your view on the Bible is literal or figurative. 



-The Mad Dr. Shock 
"The Uncertainty Principle abridged: You can't see the forest through the trees."
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/24/2001 3:08 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (57 of 94)  
 
  71.57 in reply to 71.52  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
Jesus wasnt Married to Mary.

Jesus is Married to His Church!!

The Bible has No Difficulty directly relating the Facts. If Jesus were married to anyone other than the Church the Bible would have stated it. It is the Facts of the Bible that you have so much difficulty with and are trying to ignore and discount that is why you want to speculate instead of process what the Bible does say on various topics.
  The Bible does not say anything one way or the other about whether or not Jesus was married, other than to vaguely hint at the possibility that he was married to Mary Magdalene.

  There are many other great and important men mentioned in the Bible, who must have been married, but whose marriages and wives are not directly mentioned.  I'll note, specifically, that while there is no direct mention that Peter was married, there is mention of his wife's mother, and only because of this mention can we know for certain that Peter was married.  Had Peter's mother-in-law not been part of some event deemed worthy of mention, there woul dhave been no biblical record to the effect that he had been married.  The Bible does make it very clear that marriage is of great importance, and in the culture in which Jesus lived, it would be very unusual for a man in his thirties not to be married.  In fact, had Jesus not been married, I think this point would have been seen as remarkable enough that it would have been mentioned.

  Given that there is no direct mention, one way or the other, concerning whether or not Jesus was married, I think it is by far most logical to suppose the less remarkable of the two possibilities to be true, that Jesus was most likely married. 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 To email me, remove the string .nospam from the email address which appears below.  DO NOT send me any form of advertising, chain letters, or other such garbage.  Spammers will be dealt with very harshly!

bob-blaylock.nospam@usa.net  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/24/2001 7:01 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (58 of 94)  
 
  71.58 in reply to 71.56  
 
Are you saying that the wedding in Cana was Jesus' wedding? 
I'm sure Not. 

Jesus was a "Guest" of the wedding, He was invited it was not His wedding.




David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 6/24/2001 10:03:22 PM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/24/2001 7:30 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (59 of 94)  
 
  71.59 in reply to 71.58  
 
In the Jewish culture it has been and IS tradition for even the groom to be invited to his wedding as it is orchestrated by the parents of the bride... it used to be the last chance of the parents to back out of an arranged marriage when the parents felt the son was unworthy of thier daughter (See Jewish Princess). 
Al Kupone
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


   From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/24/2001 7:49 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (60 of 94)  
 
  71.60 in reply to 71.59  
 
It was also custom for the Groom to know that it was his wedding. Jesus went to the wedding as a guest not as the Groom. Also the wedding was in the wrong city to be a Marriage for Jesus. Jesus lived in Nazareth the wedding was in Cana. 
Had Jesus gotten married According to Jewish Law and Custom, Jesus would have to spend the first year of the marriage making His wife happy, and not traveling the Country alone Declaring that He is the Kingdom of God. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
 
From:  Darth Sufferable (Winston_Sith)   6/24/2001 9:12 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (61 of 94)  
 
  71.61 in reply to 71.1  
 
:::Is he alive today? 
Most assuredly, but in a spiritual (angelic) body, not an earthly (flesh) body. 

:::Where will he come from? 

He will descend from heaven, and land on the Mount of Olives. 

:::What will he look like? 

What most people think Jesus Christ looks like. 

:::What will he do? 

Claim to be Jesus Christ returned i.e LIE BIGTIME. 

:::Does he even know he's the antichrist? 

Well, he WANTS to be Jesus Christ. 

:::Is he a nescessary evil? 

Yes. But it's part of God's plan.


Winston_Sith
Host, L iving In American Reality: 2001 Forum

"... in our dream, we have limitless resources, and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hand. The present educational conventions fade from our minds, and unhampered by tradition, we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive folk. We shall not try to make these people or any other children into philosophers or men of learning and science. ..." - Fredrick Gates, The Rockefeller Foundation, 1913

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Dr_Shock   6/24/2001 11:19 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (62 of 94)  
 
  71.62 in reply to 71.60  
 
<<<It was also custom for the Groom to know that it was his wedding. Jesus went to the wedding as a guest not as the Groom. Also the wedding was in the wrong city to be a Marriage for Jesus. Jesus lived in Nazareth the wedding was in Cana.>>> 
The wedding was always held whereever the bride's family felt was proper. The Groom is always invited by the bride's people to show that he is welcomed into the family. Kupone said it fairly well in his post, although not quite as it was explained to me. 

<<<Had Jesus gotten married According to Jewish Law and Custom, Jesus would have to spend the first year of the marriage making His wife happy, and not traveling the Country alone Declaring that He is the Kingdom of God.>>> 

Nothing in Hebrew tradition says the couple has to stay in one place for this year. Who said his wife wouldn't want him to continue teaching? Jesus rarely roamed alone. He always had someone with him.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  StevenJn316   6/25/2001 1:10 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (63 of 94)  
 
  71.63 in reply to 71.58  
 
Yes, David it seems Dr. Shock thinks John 2 is Jesus' own wedding - which speaks to a much larger issue, one I will try to post on in my 'inconsistent critics' thread. 
If you had 100 people who never had read the Bible before and had no other Christian ideas, and showed them John 2, I do not think even one person would think Jesus was the one at the wedding, getting married. 

Add to those people the millions of Christians who have read the Bible (many with 'degrees' which seems important to the good doctor and other backgrounds into Jewish custom and tradition) and these millions also do not see Jesus as the groom here in John 2. 

I think the Bible says what it means, and means what it says. Argument for the sake of argument is fruitless. 

And Jesus used marriage often in his parables and teaching, and all he said there matches what we know today to be Jewish tradtion - such as the groom coming at an undisclosed time to pick up his bride for the wedding, and other such details.
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


Message 64 of 94 was Deleted    



  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/25/2001 7:44 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (65 of 94)  
 
  71.65 in reply to 71.63  
 
DW
Servant and Slave are the same word in the Bible.

Christians are Honored to be a Servant/Slave of Jesus. Having Jesus as our Master in charge of our lives is the highest privilege of trust for a Christian in a relationship with God.

A Slave/Servant has it as good as the Master is willing to treat the Slave/Servant.

Matthew 11:28-30 Come unto Me (Jesus), all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find Rest unto your Souls. For my yoke is easy and My burden is light.

**
I deleted your previous post. Please feel free to re-post, making your point, but without the insulting tone. 

I have posted messages on other Christian sites inviting other Christians to visit Basic Christian forum, I feel that as Host of Basic Christian it is my responsibility to make Basic Christian a forum where Christians Know that they are Valued and Welcome. To that end I will be more vigorous in deleting posts. 






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Zebra30   6/25/2001 7:50 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (66 of 94)  
 
  71.66 in reply to 71.45  
 
About Mrs. Beverly LaHaye being the wife of Tim: in a word, "YES"!!Also, I'm glad that you will look into the profanity problem. Why do you think that witches, profanity-mongers, atheists and others of this sort visit this forum,BTW? Is it to hassle Christians, to get our dander up, so to speak? Probably some are sincerely seaking to dialogue with us, while others have nothing better to do than spout profane and obscene words. Personally, I don't mind if someone disagrees with me or anyone else on this or any forum. I just wish that they'd have a little more respect for our sensibilities. 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Zebra30   6/25/2001 7:54 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (67 of 94)  
 
  71.67 in reply to 71.46  
 
Suit yourself,pal. I hope for your sake that you are right. 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Zebra30   6/25/2001 8:19 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (68 of 94)  
 
  71.68 in reply to 71.49  
 
That's where you're wrong, my friend. I can think for myself very well, thank you. I am thinking right now what arrogant cusses some of you non-believers are. Not all of you, fortunately. But a lot of you who visit this and other Christian forums display a noticeable lack of humility. You think that with all your degrees and education and such like you know everything. You feel that just because you are well-educated you have need of nothing and no one. You can just take that diploma or doctorate or whatever and you set for life. (Let me say here that I am not speaking out against education. I'm just against snobbishness) And about the Antichrist; what you seem to be missing (or just don't want to see)is that the Antichrist will control every aspect of your life. He will have the final say even over whether you live or die. You sound as if you're puffed up with pride right now. But what if you somehow fall out of favor with this guy for some reason? What will your mighty education do for you then?In the end The Beast (as he is also called) won't care if you're educated or a dunce. He won't care if you're a Christian or an atheist or a Buddhist or a Moslem or whatever. If you refuse to bow the knee to him at that time (just as apparently you refuse to bow the knee to Jesus right now) he will destroy you. His whole program, in reality, is about the destruction of mankind in order to prevent the Second Coming of Jesus back to this planet. So physician, heal thyself. 
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Dr_Shock   6/26/2001 12:30 am  
To:  Zebra30   (69 of 94)  
 
  71.69 in reply to 71.68  
 
As I said before (as said in the words of a great revolutionary long since dead), better to die on my feet than live on my knees. What I don't understand is why Christians believe that the only ones duped will be non Christians. After all, you might be taken in as well since, as it says in the Bible, no one will ever be able to see it coming. For all we know, the Antichrist is already in power or, perhaps, isn't even a twinkle in the eye of his father yet.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/26/2001 2:54 am  
To:  Zebra30   (70 of 94)  
 
  71.70 in reply to 71.68  
 
when you put your bibl where your brain should be, you're not thinking for yourself, you're thinking for your church. Or even worse, for your god. 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/26/2001 5:26 am  
To:  Zebra30   (71 of 94)  
 
  71.71 in reply to 71.68  
 
Wait a sec. A person comes in here and tells you what they believe because of their education and reference to facts that they can quote, and you counter with claiming that WHAT you believe IS fact without any other support than a single text, THEN you conclude and promise that the other person will die a miserable death and be the sorry fool in the end AND YOU CALL HIM "ARROGANT"??? 
(Not to mention "lacking humility".) 

I think you need to read some of your own posts, thank you. 








--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  StevenJn316   6/27/2001 11:26 am  
To:  Zebra30   (72 of 94)  
 
  71.72 in reply to 71.68  
 
And of course, if history is any guide, whenever a dictator rises to power (such as a Pol Pot), the highly educated are usually the first to be killed, as are those of deep religious faith. 
It will not matter if the educated 'recognize' the antichrist as Dr. Shock and others have said, he will have the army, guns and manpower to destroy anyone who does not get in line - he is not a secret. 

And I wonder about those like Dr. Shock who boast of great bravery in the eyes of death without a strong religious faith. Something tells me when he is told, just take this mark and you can live on in peace and prosperity, otherwise be killed, the choice may seem different at that time. I could be wrong though. 

However, every knee will bow before the Lord, either now on Earth, or before the judgment seat. 

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Dr_Shock   6/27/2001 1:25 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (73 of 94)  
 
  71.73 in reply to 71.72  
 
Have you ever had a sawed off shotgun pointed at the back of your head? I have. Death is no big deal, really. "Bravery" is a matter of character not faith. Christians often brag about how the survivors of Columbine were only able to survive because of their faith. Well, if their faith was so strong why didn't they bum rush the gunmen as so many others have done in school shootings? Instead they just cowered like sheep and waited to die, too weak to take a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" attitude. 
The only reason you heard about Columbine in the news was because it happened to white rich kids. If you go to Lincoln High in inner city Denver they have a HUGE wall-type memorial for everyone who has died inside the school from violence. There was a similar incident to Columbine two weeks prior in my high school (in northern Jeffco) where the three shooters didn't even get through the door before they were beat senseless by some of the local punks. However, that didn't make the national news and was barely mentioned on the local news.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/27/2001 2:10 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (74 of 94)  
 
  71.74 in reply to 71.73  
 
Well, firstly, Columbine did happen to upper white people. I can't argue there. 
But some of the other reasons that it got so much coverage 

The shooters were organized 
They had somewhat of a large amount of weapons 
Large body count (13 people dead in one shootout will get a lot of people's attention) 
The cops did nothing but wait outside 
This had never happened before 


---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/27/2001 10:58 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (75 of 94)  
 
  71.75 in reply to 71.74  
 
Actually, there had been others before Columbine. 
Al Kupone
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/27/2001 11:05 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (76 of 94)  
 
  71.76 in reply to 71.75  
 
Actually, Columbine was a first for everyone. The other school shootings involved mostly someone with a rifle standing in the parking lot picking off maybe 1 or 2 people as they filed out of the school. 
Columbine was a new entity for SWAT team members. Before hand, most shooters would hole up with hostages, and the SWAT knew exactly what room they were in. Or at least to a general location. Columbine was a LARGE school, and the police had no idea where the shooters were. This spawned a term for SWAT across America as a "moving shooter", as in someone who could be ANYWHERE in the building.

---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Dr_Shock   6/28/2001 5:05 am  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (77 of 94)  
 
  71.77 in reply to 71.76  
 
Columbine isn't that large of a school. They used to hold a lot of debate/forensics tournaments there so I was quite familiar with the layout of the building. Considering the whole commons area is panoramic glass leading out into the parking lot, I have to wonder why no one saw them before they entered the school. 
Secondly, the whole rescue operation was completely botched by the Jeffco sheriff's department and the local cops. Even with the proper training I doubt they could have done much to alleviate the situation. Right before the shootings began, they were 5 miles away investigating an explosion on a local bike trail (later discovered to be a distraction set by the gunmen). But you'd have to have met Jeffco law enforcement to understand why they couldn't get their priorities straight. They're extremely incompetent. Incompetent to the point where they couldn't even make any arrests in a near public methamphetamine ring plaguing the Columbine area several months prior to the shootings. Did you know that there was an armed police officer (the older brother of a friend of mine) in the building at the time of the shootings? All he did was unload a clip full of rounds into a wall in the general direction of the gunmen before cowering in a maintenance closet until the paramedics dragged him out. Why didn't he "serve and protect" like he was supposed to? 

To me, the incident involving the two kindergartner boys was a lot more unexplainable a tragedy. In that instance, you have no one to place blame upon.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Zebra30   6/28/2001 6:48 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (78 of 94)  
 
  71.78 in reply to 71.70  
 
Excuse me Robrecht for saying this because this isn't my usual language, but yeah, you're darn tootin' that I'm thinking for my God because He's the one responsible for giving me this brain and the ability to use it, albeit sometimes irresponsibly. As to the reason why I think that it is mainly non-Christians that will be taken in by the Antichrist's lies, that's because the Antichrist appeals to the pride (such as you're displaying now) and arrogance in the heart of fallen mankind. You seem to have the idea that because you're so smart or well-educated or whatever that you know it all. Apparently you're content to live only for yourself. You have need of nothing and no one. Your wits and your smarts will carry you through. But what do you think of, honestly, when the lights are turned off at night and you're lying there in your bed? Don't you sense a certain emptiness, a certain sense that there's more to this life than material things? Don't you feel the need for evidence of some ultimate reality? To whom do you cry out to when the chips are down? Do you really just cry out to yourself? Beware, my friend, for when the Antichrist does take the throne of power in the future (and that future may not be far off), I'm afraid that your pride and your selfishness will, in the end, destroy you. 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Zebra30   6/28/2001 6:55 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (79 of 94)  
 
  71.79 in reply to 71.74  
 
Aren't you forgetting the young black student who perished as well, DW? It wasn't a totally lily-white situation. It's a tragedy anyway you look at it. 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


   From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/28/2001 7:43 pm  
To:  Zebra30   (80 of 94)  
 
  71.80 in reply to 71.79  
 
Yeah, it is a tragedy. It caused the US government to pass laws against the first amendment. It also caused them to pass more gun laws, thus further subverting the word of god. 
Jesus supports guns. Its official.

---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit  
 
 From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/24/2003 9:58 pm  
To:  Zebra30   (81 of 94)  
 
  71.81 in reply to 71.17  
 
Hi Zebra,

I saw this old post and am just wondering how you are doing.

If you see this have a Great 4th of July weekend!

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Zebra30   6/29/2003 10:36 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (82 of 94)  
 
  71.82 in reply to 71.81  
 
Hi, David. Thanks for your message. I'm glad that you have not forgotten me. I am still in the process of recuperating from what I think is a summer flu. At least, the symtoms felt like the flu that I often get every year. But otherwise, I'm alright. And you, too, have a very happy and safe 4th of July. 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Zebra30   6/29/2003 11:03 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (83 of 94)  
 
  71.83 in reply to 71.81  
 
Oh, before I forget to mention......what do you think of the idea that the Antichrist will even offer his own version of the Millenium? I bring this up because of that verse in Revelation, chapter 17 where during this time the world will be ruled over by ten kings (as the Bible puts them) who are in turn controlled by the Antichrist. It says in (the verse number escapes me at the moment, but I think it's towards the end of the chapter) that chapter that these ten kings will give up all their sovereignty and control unto the beast. If you skip back over to chapter (I believe) 4, you will see where it speaks of the twenty four elders casting their crowns before the feet of Jesus. I guess what I'm suggesting is that the Antichrist's whole earthly reign is really nothing more than a blatant mockery of Jesus' earthly reign. Everything that Jesus accomplished while on earth the devil tries to imitate or worse, tries to mock. And no, I don't think that the Antichrist is a "necessary evil" as you put it. It is a matter of giving mankind what it's been wanting for several millenia (at least, it's giving us what we've SAID that we've wanted). Meaning, a godless, man-centered world where man is the center of all things. But as time will prove, earth's citizens won't like it. Get back with me, okay? 
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/30/2003 8:24 am  
To:  Zebra30   (84 of 94)  
 
  71.84 in reply to 71.83  
 
Hi Zebra30,

 

I think it is very Interesting.

 

I think so because Hitler (The Very Picture of Antichrist) was offering the German People the 1,000 Reign (Reich), which was his version of His reign on earth of course Hitler was the savior.

 

Also if you see the WWII Photos of Japans Emperor he is sitting on a white horse which he personally selected for the photo to reveal that he was ushering in a Japanese 1,000 year reign as the rider of the White horse of Revelation's first seal.

 

That was Exactly the timing of WWII in that in the nearly mid 1900s these empires were trying to get a drop on the new Millennium and have a reign from 2000  3000.

 

Yesterday (Sunday) I was sitting with at a table of guys and one of them had just gotten back from Iraq and I mentioned that all of these events are very much end times and explained that it is the Bible countries of Israel and Iraq (Babylon) that are in the news and at war and with the Bible in the news that is News. It is different then say a war in Argentina because Argentina is not directly a Bible nation. It was funny someone tossed in the mention of a war with Canada.

 

We are so far into end times that we the Church should start packing our bags for the rapture.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 6/30/2003 11:35:55 AM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/30/2003 8:30 am  
To:  Zebra30   (85 of 94)  
 
  71.85 in reply to 71.83  
 
Hi,

 

Also I just added a Mark of the Beast 666 topic to Basic Christian: Theology because besides the counterfeit Millennium of the Antichrist I think his Mark of the beast is a counterfeit to the Born Again seal of the Christian.

 

Ultimately the Antichrist is offering a counterfeit salvation to go along with the counterfeit Millennium and he has a counterfeit resurrection, a human is killed or wounded and Satan posses this person that becomes the Antichrist, it is After this fake resurrection that the Mark of the Beast becomes an offering.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Zebra30   6/30/2003 9:04 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (86 of 94)  
 
  71.86 in reply to 71.84  
 
Hi, David. Nice to hear from you again. I'd like to say that I agree with practically everything that you have stated. I must say that I didn't know about much of your information, such as the one about the Japanese emperor and his white horse. I do know that up until sometime after the war that the emperor was worshipped as "deity", as a god in other words. And I must also agree heartily with your assessment of the subject of "the mark of the beast". You see, everything about this coming world leader based in mockery or imitation. As I've stated before, just as this coming one-world system will probably be promoted as a substitute "millenium" by the Antichrist or beast, so the "mark of the beast" is a substitute "seal" of the Holy Spirit. In fact, it's been stated by a number of prophecy experts that the reign of the Antichrist is a blatant mockery of the Holy Trinity. Whereas we Christians have God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit the Antichrist will try to imitate or mock this by having Satan as the "Father", the Antichrist as the "Son" and the liberated demons who will be permitted to work their satanic miracles during this time as the "Holy Spirit" (or, as some others have suggested, the False Prophet who will be working hand in hand with the Antichrist at this time will be the one to fill this role).  
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  jeffmcf   7/2/2003 3:32 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (87 of 94)  
 
  71.87 in reply to 71.85  
 
A good page: 
http://www.bebaptized.org/antichrist.htm 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/2/2003 4:42 pm  
To:  jeffmcf unread  (88 of 94)  
 
  71.88 in reply to 71.87  
 
Hi,

 

Excellent article.

 

I think that a future Pope will be the False Prophet while the Politician (President of the World i.e. U.N.) will be the Antichrist.

 

Some other interesting resources are The Antichrist and a cup of Tea this shows the Antichrist symbolism in the British Royal Family.

 

Also very interesting are the Malachi Martin Catholic Prophecies who claims that the next Pope will be of Jewish descent as Peter was a Jew and then the Next Pope will take the name of Peter, who is considered the first Pope and no Pope has ever taken that name and this Peter will be the false Prophet for the Antichrist.

 

The Roman Church is, Pope John Paul is virtually certain that in two Popes there will be the false prophet and this is behind much of the Vatican policies and politics.

 

The guy Next in line to be the Pope is a Jewish man who was raised by Catholics during the Holocaust and became a Catholic and the Catholic Church feels this will absolve them of any anti-Jewish Holocaust baggage and will also give Rome an in to Israel  Jerusalem politics where Rome is trying to build a Catholic Capital.

 

Yes, It is very interesting times!!

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Adygha   7/5/2003 8:26 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (89 of 94)  
 
  71.89 in reply to 71.88  
 
Hello there..., 
From all I read, and with all due respect, so far, as zealous as you portray your self to be of the Bible and the Life of Jesus, I find no defference from what the `zealous` sects of other religions to be, in portraying them selves such as in Islam and certainly the mother of all religions...Judasism. You all sing the same tune. You all degrade the image of whatever behind the creation of life as God, "the one who made man in his image"! The ONE who hears and sees all. In my perception...if God sees, hears, says or sends any Messages to us ...the humans, then he/she is Human, simply becuase he/she thinks like us, which makes him/her a human creation instead of creating us. A GOD CAN NOT be anything any human can comprehend due to the vastness of the concept. There`s a limit where the human mind can travel and contemplate, once you reach the point of helplessness where the Brain can not take it any more and sends waves of shuddering emotions to the body, without going crazy, then you meybe...just maybe stepping in to the domain of God. The GOD is beyond our human perception. God is Nothingness,in human perception! 
Be well, and bless you all. 
Adygha 
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/5/2003 9:53 pm  
To:  Adygha   (90 of 94)  
 
  71.90 in reply to 71.89  
 
Hi,

 

The Bible is Gods revealed word to mankind.

 

It is through the voice and the pens of the Holy Prophets that God revealed Himself to us in until Jesus came and being God He is the fullness of His Representation.

 

Reading the Bible and studying the Life and Teachings of Jesus is clarification and instruction about all the mysteries of the human existence.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Adygha   7/6/2003 9:29 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (91 of 94)  
 
  71.91 in reply to 71.90  
 
Good day to you sir, 
You have just repeated the point I emphasized on << the Bible is the Word of God REVEALED to man kind ..>> 
The fact that God acts to reveal something, which is of Human inferior qualities, means he/she is inferior too. A Supreme Creator doesnt necessarily have any Human qualities, it`s beyond any human immagination. The immagination is the sole quality that made Man great, which in turn generated the Greatness a God. Go ahead...try sending your thoughts and immagination to the end of our universe, and further beyond and beyond till you can travel no more, what then? Go back or forth in time, in same fashion until your Brain feels it`s going no where...then what? I assure it would be a worth while experience, it`s so humbling! 
Be well. 
Adygha 
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/6/2003 11:45 am  
To:  Adygha   (92 of 94)  
 
  71.92 in reply to 71.91  
 
Hi,

 

I find that sending my thoughts to the Feet, the Cross, and the Resurrection of Jesus is very humbling as well.

 

But unlike what you purpose, I find Thoughts (Prayer) To Jesus to be Very Rewarding!

 

I agree God has Created a very large universe.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Adygha   7/15/2003 7:53 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (93 of 94)  
 
  71.93 in reply to 71.92  
 
Hello David, I`m back.....I want to tell that, Some how I find you devoid of the Christian spirit, what drives you is your own ego, and not Christianity or Jesus Christ as you may want evryone to believe. 
I`ll be in and out to commentate, so, dont expect an answer everytime you talk to me in such un-intelligent manner, because you are so much predictible!!! Remove the Blinckers and stop hiding bnehind the figure of Jesus. Think as a One Unit with all the creation, and endure the facts of the Time and Space before you are consumed in your own ego, this is where my son..., Jesus would grant you some acknowledgment. 
Be well. 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


   From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/15/2003 8:17 pm  
To:  Adygha   (94 of 94)  
 
  71.94 in reply to 71.93  
 
In other words if I think like you do then and only then am I ok.

 

Jesus has set every person free from dominating people like you. I choose to remain free in Jesus rather than try to achieve some arbitrary standard that you or anyone else like you would want to impose on me.

 

I'll pass on your offer! 

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
 
